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Post by Scorpio on Apr 2, 2007 0:02:28 GMT
How's this for a criminal skill en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millwall_brick1 extra point of damage with fists if you have a newspaper in the inventory (for making the millwall brick) The skill would not be cumulative, ie: You couldn't just save up a big stack of papers and cause huge damage.
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Post by grigori on Apr 2, 2007 0:22:00 GMT
Huh... I like it.
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Khallos
RP Moderator
The Duke of Ditchington
Posts: 1,507
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Post by Khallos on Apr 2, 2007 10:04:44 GMT
Ahh, the good old millwall brick ^^ Hehe, finally, a use for the hundreds of newspapers im constantly finding.
Quick question - would civillians be able to learn Crim skills, for a cost of some obscene EXP tarrif, like, 200 EXP or something?
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Post by grigori on Apr 2, 2007 19:25:07 GMT
Nope. That's why it says extra side. If normal survivors could get any of these, we wouldn't stop hearin the zomb players for years (if the game does indeed last that long).
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Post by swiers on May 4, 2007 17:55:46 GMT
I saw this a while ago on the RedRum forum, and thought it was cool but impractical.
One significant hole is that dead criminals become zombies (I'm assuming) but for some reason, revived zombies (I'm talking about the ones who start the game that way) don't ever seem to become criminals.
Also, I really don't think "criminal" should be a "class" you can't shift into. In real life, learning new skills is EXACTLY how you do become a criminal. Indeed, many police officers have all the same skills a criminal has- in fact, some police officers are active criminals themselves.
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Post by Scorpio on May 4, 2007 18:32:11 GMT
A few days short of necromancy here. Cut it out.
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Post by grigori on May 4, 2007 20:40:05 GMT
S'alright Scorp. He's got a point.
Alright, Swiers, but how do you suppose these skills would be anywhere near balanced on the survivor side? If that were the case, it'd be impossibly broken. Also, for the last time, by criminal, I don't necessarily mean lawbreaker, as your post seemed to indicate. It's more the moral fiber of the character that I'm talking about. I should probably think of another name, if you've got an idea that'd be great.
EDIT: Also, in regards to starting zombs not being able to be criminals after revive, how bout a box to check off whether you wanted to be a civilian or criminal?
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Post by swiers on May 4, 2007 22:31:51 GMT
Scorp- the thread was pinned at the top of the forum and not locked. That's pretty much the definition of a call for active discussion.
Grig- the checkbox would go a long way towards fixing things, though its still annoying that all the "evil" characters already in the game can't be criminals- but they COULD buy the law enforcement skill?
I think the better way to go is just to design survivor skills that are balanced when taken by survivors, but which only survivors who want to play as "bad guys" would ever take. Your "looting" skill, for example, would make anybody who takes it pretty unpopular with other survivors (more or less the defination of "criminal") assuming they were totally unable to clean up ransacked buildings once they took the skill.
Consider this- if having both survivor and criminal skills on the same character is so unbalanced, what would happen when survivors and criminals team up with each other, instead of fighting against each other?
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Post by grigori on May 4, 2007 23:04:04 GMT
In response to your last question, you'd have a sub-par group compared to a group with pure-survivors (Assuming it's a normal survivor group. It would make an excellent pk'ing group if done right). Criminals are meant to be inferior at zombie killing, but superior at pk'ing, than survivors. It's supposed to be a completely different playing style from survivors, which is why they are a seperate side.
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Post by swiers on May 4, 2007 23:22:45 GMT
Maybe I'm missing something, but what makes criminals superior at PKing and inferior at ZKing? The fact that they get more XP from it? After a (fairly easily reached) point, experience makes no meaningful difference. Zombies suffer the exact same weapon damage from everything a criminal can do as a survivor (or criminal) would, so I don't see how criminals are any better at killing one over the other. Now granted, the criminal might have a very hard time leveling up to a decent point without killing quite a few survivors, but once they get there, there is really nothing stopping the two from teaming up, is there? Not so much so with zombies and survivors...
If you want a third side to the game, they need to be further separated from humanity (and zombiedom) than a mere soccer hooligan or even a scizoid sociopath would be. Those guys can be reasoned with, at least sometimes. I think you'd need something along the lines of a supernatural entity, or an infected human that actually harms other survivors by their mere presence.
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Post by Scorpio on May 4, 2007 23:29:19 GMT
Given the potential amount of new groups formed with criminal intent and law enforcement in mind, It would probably balance out. Players who enjoy focusing on certain 'jobs' seem to outnumber the players who try everything themselves.
Criminals could end up helping with a culling among the survivors.
and how would supernatural fit into the game, wouldn't that be more 'Nexus'?
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Post by grigori on May 4, 2007 23:42:39 GMT
Maybe I'm missing something, but what makes criminals superior at PKing and inferior at ZKing? The fact that they get more XP from it? After a (fairly easily reached) point, experience makes no meaningful difference. Zombies suffer the exact same weapon damage from everything a criminal can do as a survivor (or criminal) would, so I don't see how criminals are any better at killing one over the other. Now granted, the criminal might have a very hard time leveling up to a decent point without killing quite a few survivors, but once they get there, there is really nothing stopping the two from teaming up, is there? Not so much so with zombies and survivors... If you want a third side to the game, they need to be further separated from humanity (and zombiedom) than a mere soccer hooligan or even a scizoid sociopath would be. Those guys can be reasoned with, at least sometimes. I think you'd need something along the lines of a supernatural entity, or an infected human that actually harms other survivors by their mere presence. To answer your first paragraph, they aren't effective at clearing any large numbers of zombies like survivors, who can kill quite a few with enough ammo. Their skills are largely centered at being able to kill something or maybe 2 somethings every single day (like a fireman, for example). They also don't have headshot, reflecting the fact they are sub-par zombie hunters. The second paragraph does, like Scorp said, seem a little too Nexus-y to me. Unless we're shooting for some sort of mutant or vampire, the closest we're going to get to a go-between is a criminal, someone who owes no real allegiance to either side.
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Post by swiers on May 4, 2007 23:57:23 GMT
Ah, now I see. Hmm, and they can't revive, either? Looks like they would all end up zombies before to long. Really, who's gonna revive a criminal, if they can avoid it?
And yeah, I'm not saying I had a feasible idea for a third side to the game; more the opposite, as all the ones I can think of are pretty bad. Completely insane survivors who use "feral human" skills are about the best I can come up with. In a city filled with brain-damaged individuals who keep getting revived, true insanity (IE, organic brain dysfunction) might be pretty common. But again, who would bother reviving them?
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Post by King Jager III on May 17, 2007 7:24:25 GMT
I reckon, in addition to what's been said, should the criminal's names be in a different coloured box (Military's green, zombie's grey etc.)?
Cause then they'd only be identifiable as criminals immmediately if there was barely noone around in a room or if someone looked up their skill list...
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Post by grigori on May 18, 2007 0:59:01 GMT
I almost entirely forgot that's what the interface looks like. I've been using UDtool so long I couldn't remember.
Yes, assuming you have the skill to tell them apart, they'd be orange (I believe red is taken). If not, they'd be civilian blue.
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Post by soulking on May 21, 2007 19:48:43 GMT
May this skill could be added to the survivors:
Weapon Knowleage
you have knowleage on what they are weak aganist
This skill give's an extra 5% to weapons that the criminals are weak aganist. For example, if the Criminal was a Clivilin, all pistals weapon's gain 5%, if it was a scientest, then 5% to melee, and miliatary, 5% to all fist.
And this for the Criminals to combat the skill above:
Weakness Known
By knowing my weakness i have trained
This skill gives an extra 1 damage to the criminals, so if the criminal was a Miliatary then his fist would gain a extra 1 dmg, Clivilin would gain extra 1 dmg to all pistals and Scientest would gain 1 extra dmg to meele weapons
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Post by grigori on May 21, 2007 20:33:50 GMT
Criminals are criminals from the start, not attained after being a normal survivor.
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Post by soulking on May 21, 2007 21:04:10 GMT
Weakness known is a speical skill that is learned after the player who had weapon knowelage killed him/her, then the skill weakness known would appear
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Post by grigori on May 21, 2007 21:09:21 GMT
I don't beleive that's codable.
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Post by soulking on May 21, 2007 21:11:00 GMT
well is the weakness known skill can't be used then at least the Weapons knowelage can be learned
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Kan
Elite Member
I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
Posts: 2,361
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Post by Kan on May 21, 2007 22:37:05 GMT
Uh wut?
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Post by soulking on May 21, 2007 22:38:38 GMT
The weakness Known skill i suggested
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Post by Lina on Jul 7, 2007 6:28:55 GMT
How about a pickpocket skill?
10% chance to hit, Criminal steals anywhere from 1 to 5 exp from the target? Any player could be the target.
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Post by utopiatree on Jul 8, 2007 1:55:35 GMT
This seems like it would be better if it formed some sort of triad. It almost does, as survivors have interest in killing criminals and zombies, and zombies have interest in killing survivors and criminals. however, criminals only have interest in killing zombies, it seems, although I suppose they could benefit from killing zombies around their safehouses. Perhaps criminals should get 100% xp from attacking zombies, but not have skills that help them do so. Also, criminals should be able to identify each other as such. May this skill could be added to the survivors: Weapon Knowleageyou have knowleage on what they are weak aganistThis skill give's an extra 5% to weapons that the criminals are weak aganist. For example, if the Criminal was a Clivilin, all pistals weapon's gain 5%, if it was a scientest, then 5% to melee, and miliatary, 5% to all fist. And this for the Criminals to combat the skill above: Weakness KnownBy knowing my weakness i have trainedThis skill gives an extra 1 damage to the criminals, so if the criminal was a Miliatary then his fist would gain a extra 1 dmg, Clivilin would gain extra 1 dmg to all pistals and Scientest would gain 1 extra dmg to meele weapons this does not seem to make any sense to me. Sorry for the double post.
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Post by grigori on Jul 9, 2007 23:29:03 GMT
How about a pickpocket skill? 10% chance to hit, Criminal steals anywhere from 1 to 5 exp from the target? Any player could be the target. A good idea, but too griefy. Any skill that steals something from other players-xp, item, or otherwise- is almost always shot down, and for fairly good reason. This seems like it would be better if it formed some sort of triad. It almost does, as survivors have interest in killing criminals and zombies, and zombies have interest in killing survivors and criminals. however, criminals only have interest in killing zombies, it seems, although I suppose they could benefit from killing zombies around their safehouses. Perhaps criminals should get 100% xp from attacking zombies, but not have skills that help them do so. Also, criminals should be able to identify each other as such. I don't recall saying that criminals didn't get 100 xp for killing zombies. If that isn't so, then yes, they should. And they don't have any skills that help them do so- while they are able to kill zeds fairly easily, they don't have headshot, making them just as useless as any trenchcoater. As for your second idea, I agree. They should get a self-identification skill. I'll write one in. May this skill could be added to the survivors: Weapon Knowleageyou have knowleage on what they are weak aganistThis skill give's an extra 5% to weapons that the criminals are weak aganist. For example, if the Criminal was a Clivilin, all pistals weapon's gain 5%, if it was a scientest, then 5% to melee, and miliatary, 5% to all fist. And this for the Criminals to combat the skill above: Weakness KnownBy knowing my weakness i have trainedThis skill gives an extra 1 damage to the criminals, so if the criminal was a Miliatary then his fist would gain a extra 1 dmg, Clivilin would gain extra 1 dmg to all pistals and Scientest would gain 1 extra dmg to meele weapons this does not seem to make any sense to me. Sorry for the double post. It didn't make much sense to me, either. As for the double post, you are forgiven. I'll take the liberty of editing it into your last post.
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Khallos
RP Moderator
The Duke of Ditchington
Posts: 1,507
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Post by Khallos on Jul 10, 2007 10:48:21 GMT
How about a pickpocket skill? 10% chance to hit, Criminal steals anywhere from 1 to 5 exp from the target? Any player could be the target. Argh, the horror! Reminds me of the old days when the Headshot skil meant that instead of spending AP it made the aflicted zombie lose most of ther XP... meaning that pretty much all the zombie players were level 3 ish and you had to earn your XP as a survivor and then kill yourself. Only, seeing as this is a crim skil, it would be survivors taking a concrete swandive and earning XP as a zombie While im not usually against anything that forces survivors to play as a zombie for a cange rather than being "Mickey Two-guns", this will just cause grief. No theivery!
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Post by grigori on Jul 10, 2007 17:57:31 GMT
I added some stuff to the first post.
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Guarez
Member
Pokin' Zeds
Posts: 45
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Post by Guarez on Jul 11, 2007 0:27:06 GMT
After reading this thing inside-out, I'd have to say nay if it was up to me. For one thing, since when was PKing something encouraged? It's just an all around bad idea to give those (politically incorrect word) their own class...
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Post by grigori on Jul 11, 2007 3:06:29 GMT
If there's one thing I've realized from the time I joined the game until now, it's that pk'ers are just as much a part of the game as survivors and zombies. Originally, I thought pk'ers were evil, vile creatures as well. But that's a purely survivor-only view, and a relatively inexperienced one at that. Pk'ers are part of the flavor of the game. They would be just as prevelant with or without this addition. What I'm trying to do here is 4 things:
1. Let players who want a pk'er not have to wait half a year or give up their main character to get one anywhere near proficient. 2. Give pk'ers a greater sense of uniqueness and make the fact pk'ers are pretty much their own side already part of the game. 3. Allow survivors to tell apart who is a pk'er and who isn't without relying on lists (although some people will still use survivors to pk, chances are there will be less)
and
4. Decrease the natural drama that comes when people who you thought were on your side kill you. Because I hate drama.
Satisfied?
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Post by Lina on Jul 11, 2007 3:54:42 GMT
How about a pickpocket skill? 10% chance to hit, Criminal steals anywhere from 1 to 5 exp from the target? Any player could be the target. Argh, the horror! Reminds me of the old days when the Headshot skil meant that instead of spending AP it made the aflicted zombie lose most of ther XP... meaning that pretty much all the zombie players were level 3 ish and you had to earn your XP as a survivor and then kill yourself. Only, seeing as this is a crim skil, it would be survivors taking a concrete swandive and earning XP as a zombie While im not usually against anything that forces survivors to play as a zombie for a cange rather than being "Mickey Two-guns", this will just cause grief. No theivery! 10% isn't really much...it could always be 5%, or 1%. I have this one GBA game, chance to recruit a godly enemy is 1%. I got that a few times.
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